Bruce,
If you check this, please know that I am trying to get that book back to you, but that hasn't been going well. However, I am still on it, and will get it to you as soon as I can get there when it is open or when I finally go to the right place.
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Wow Bruce, garden looks great! I hope you have a great harvest. What is the best way for me to get you that book back? I can drop it off at the Vesterheim, or whatever. Have you read the article in the Inspired magazine about Borlaug?
I did finish the book, a few weeks ago. Still thinking about it, and how to spread the message effectively to friends/family and others who want to hear about the dangers of GMO's. There was a disturbing Pen and Teller clip that AJ posted on his website www.that-something.blogspot.com in which they interviewed Norman Borlaug. I am still a little unsure what Borlaug did, whether it was gene insertion or selective breeding, or both. Regardless, he is backing up claims that we need GM foods to "feed the world". Borlaug seems to be quite the icon in NE Iowa, I am curious of the arguments against his work. Any recomendations?
Hey Bruce, good to hear from you. I have not yet finished the book, but I'm almost to the end. I've been taking it rather slowly, a chapter a week, so that it all doesn't go in one eye and out the other. I have been following some recent reports regarding GM foods and it looks like rBGH is getting less popular as Yoplait (and Dannon??) have decided to get rid of it in their products. Organic Consumers Association does a good job of posting updates on the issue. It's really a great site all around. I'm really learning a lot in this book, and also have been considering the impacts personally, working in and living very near fields of GMOs and pesticide ridden crops while growing up.
Bruce, Thank you for explaining in greater detail. I agree with you, when the financial incentive ends so does the good it did. I took a Dale Carnegie course many yrs ago and a statistic that has always stuck with me is that 8 out of ten people think alike or will give the same reaction in any situation. Today that has changed to 8.5 out of 10. I think we're probably the 1.5, yea!!
I also agree with you about the (show me the money) mentality, so in knowing that if we want to help today's farmers change the way they farm and that money is the big factor here lets throw money at it until we begin the transformation we desire. Ultimately, I think we need to start with the banking system, because they do drive a lot of the decisions that today's farmers make. I guess what I'm trying to say is if 8.5 out of 10 times a decision is made for financial reasons then lets provide the financing for the good incentives not the unsustainable incentives. After all, this country has been throwing good money after bad for many, many years now. My daddy has a saying, (sometimes, you have to go in the back door to open the front door).
You, my dad & most other farmers were in the same place as far as just going with the flow, so to speak, but that was the knowledge that was presented to them.But my dad like you used the good ol' horse sense god gave them and realized what they were doing wasn't sustainable and changed the ways they farmed (the power of observation). My suggestion is to use the fact that many of today's younger farmers have college degrees to (educate) provide them with viable alternatives as it relates to sustainable farming practices. I really believe we are on the cusp of a farming revolution. Most farmers know they need a different model, but ultimately they do have to make payments, so if provided with viable opportunities they will make the needed changes. Gotta go for now, but thank you for the exchange of ideas.
Sorry to hear about your dad, & I'm looking forward to meeting you when you get moved back up here! Welcome home my friend!
John
Bruce, I'm glad to see your passion (anger) on these issues. I'm also glad to see that you've been a huge success in your farming efforts. Also if your looking for someone to fight with I'm not going there with you because I do not have the wide ranging knowledge that you have in farming & other issues.
As for lobbying, I'd like to go with you to lobby our local officials about GMO seeds as there are very few them who do farm, so they wouldn't know much about GMO's nor could they as local elected officials do anything to influence seed companies to do things differently or enact laws to change farm issues.
Now as far as lobbying our elected state officials, you are the very person that should be lobbying state level officials with your vast knowledge on seeds, farming, judging etc. Because they are the ones who are influenced by the crazy amounts of money seed companies,farm bureau and farm related industries (along with others) give to our elected officials for elections & re-elections, not our city & county officials. And, the way things have gone in the past it is QUITE OBVIOUS to me that the lobbyists are making real headway with our elected officials. There is a reason DC has over 30,000 registered lobbyists working on our elected officials.
Also, I'm very supprised I've never seen you at ANY of the many city council OR supervisor meetings that I've been at. Nor do I remember seeing you at any of the town hall meetings our state & national elected officials hold right here in our local area. Nor did I see you at any of the events I attended when I ran for State Rep this last year.
Now as far as farmers being lazy,, I couldn't DISAGREE with you more. While there are some that are lazy, the vast majority are not. Just the same as there are some bad farmers, the vast majority are good farmers or are at least trying to be good stewards of the land they want to pass on to their children. But they need to be educated with accurate facts and data to help them make responsible & sustainable farming decisions.
To answer your question on what I do; I was born & raised on a dairy farm over by Hawkeye, Ia. After high school I moved to Florida & started a career in sales and became manager of 2 Ladies shoe stores.15 yrs ago we moved back here to Iowa to raise our 4 children. I've worked part time for a farmer down by Ossian all 15 yrs while continuing a career in sales. I've also owned my own candle (handcarved) & craft business, I've managed a welding shop for a brother, I've managed a redemption center, worked in a grocery store, worked for Gage & Gage plumbing & heating, I'm a commercial property owner & a Certified Bi-lingual Auctioneer. I'm a Farm Bureau member & past co-chair of Winneshiek County Community of Hope Growing project. I was assistant manager at Rockweiler Appliance & TV, I sold ATV's, motorcycles etc. at Decorah Kawasaki/Suzuki. I'm a salesman at heart.
Just out of curiosity, how many acres do you have, what do you grow for crops & what do you raise for livestock?
God bless, John Franzen
PS. There is a town hall mtg with a representative of Tom Latham at Decorah city hall tomorrow @ 9:30 am. They are there every 1st Tuesday of the month. Also, John Beard & Maryjo Wilhelm, our new State Rep & State Senator are having a town hall mtg Feb. 28th @ Decorah city hall @ 9:30 am. Hope to see ya there! :-)
These numbers seem impossibly high. I am not doubting their truth because I would have nothing to base it on, but wow! So, is this common knowledge in politics? I mean, I remember when we marched against the Iraq War last year, and someone had a poster that said "Cost per family, ~$25,000 for this war" or something like that. I have seen those numbers elsewhere also. Well, that seems like a drop in the bucket compared to the numbers you are coming up with here.
Rudolph Steiner, sounds like a smart feller. I had never heard of him before. I will look into the biodynamic ag a little more when I have time. Right now a few friends and I are scoping out some places to plant some food, diversifying our chances. I plan to have a hell of a garden here in the back yard this year, if the landlord is ok with it.
Bruce, I believe the only way to get the info out in any given situation is to be able to match the lobbying efforts of anyone who is your (opponent) or the opposition. Which in this situation are MANY! Corn & Bean grower associations,ethanol industry & Seed company's & the list goes on & on. But I believe the most important way to get folks to listen to your cause is to get real science, real facts, & many, many warm bodied VOTERS to show up in DesMoines to lobby when your opposition is there lobbying their cause.
Politicians are moved by many voters showing up for the cause.
I truly believe that farmers, when presented with scientifically based facts want to do what is right.However, we must remember that with the amount of debt farmers carry it is also a financial issue. I guess what I'm saying here is that until we remove the subsidies and let grain prices readjust so that farmers can make a REAL profit as opposed to a subsidized profit we won't see change.
Lastly, A simple math equation, lets say you take 40 people to DesMoines to lobby for a cause our elected officials know that each one of those 40 will directly influence 10 other people, those 10 (not quite as passionate as you) will directly influence 3-4 each, & that 3-4 will directly influence 1-2 more.
Now here's the magic, 4x10= 400x3=1200+1200 == 2400 VOTERS. Every single politician out there knows that wins or losses any election & once elected most of what a politician is thinking about is getting themselves re-elected. There really is power in #'s !! Thanks Bruce, John
Yes, there ARE many people/groups already working on the issue of local food production in Decorah and Winn County. No need to recreate the wheel here, but we can all make it spin faster and further. You said you will be in town on the 5th of Feb. I am done with classes early that day, around 1:00 I think. I would be open to meeting up for an hour or so and discussing possibilities for another big group meeting before the Earth Day meeting.
On that same day at 6:30 p.m. at Good Shepherd Church, 701 Iowa Ave, there is a Co-op potluck for member/owners. From 7:30-8:00 there will be a rep with Food and Fitness Initiative giving an update. Are you a member/owner of the co-op? If you aren't, you might want to give it some thought.
Also, picking away at the book.... Also, I found out that the videos I watched were done by Jeffrey Smith, called the GMO trilogy I think.
Not to labor over this issue too much, but I do not think we disagree on this point either (consuming less, and hence not depending on their goods/services... as much or at all). I do drink coffee and buy it regularly, but I try to ensure that it is fair traded coffee. I know, this is not a perfect situation, but it is sending some capital their way. But you're right, if we stop purchasing Dole bananas and such, we will be doing a great service to our southern neighbors. It simply seems to me that, given how much harm we (yes we, we have funded our military and our "war on drugs" through fed taxes) have done, consuming less will not "fix" the situation. But... it sure as hell is a better approach than complacency in my opinion.
The question, when do we want to get together. Well, I think first we must come up with a topic of discussion, with some clearly defined goals. Should we begin by setting up a group that will discuss some local food solutions, possibly something with which to approach Grown Locally the readers on this site and have others comment. Sorry, I do not have the answers. Perhaps if we set a date with a certain topic at hand and post it for everyone to see, others will join. It sure seemed there was interest when you made the suggestion on the forum. What about Wed, Feb. 11? Or Presidents Day Feb. 16? I am free those days, at least in the evening. I suppose that is the situation of most people. Did you know that Majora Carter is coming to Luther on Feb. 10 at 7pm. I excited for that. Talk to you soon
You propose extremely important questions and pose them in understandable language. I think you may have just framed the issues of local sustainability in a way that we should start to address. We can build on the existing network of teams and organizations to tackle these questions, such as F&F Initiative, Grown Locally, SeedSavers, etc. And where they don't yet exist or aren't addressing the problems as we may see them, we should create new teams. As a Decorah resident concerned about our food security, I feel that I may not even know about all of the efforts in the area working on these issues. I suspect some who participate in these groups are already joining in the conversations here, but for the most part they don't seem to be represented. Maybe we need to approach these groups and get them active on this website. They could create a page where they can post upcoming meeting agendas, minutes, etc. Surely it would advertise their cause to a target audience.
You ask some great questions, but unfortunately when it comes to local governance structures and plans, I am fairly uneducated. I guess that comes with being 26 and not having "settled" yet. Regardless, I am prepared to engage in the process, just recognizing my learning curve may be a little steep.
As far as our discussion about immigration, it seems we disagree on a fundamental level. We have lots of skeleton in the closet internationally. Nobody can deny that we are responsible (US government) for a good deal of the suffering and poverty that exists in the world today. No, not all of it, but a lot. For instance, if we don't recognize the fact that we facilitated the coup in Guatemala that deposed a democratically elected president, who was actively working on land reform so that the people could work the land to sustain themselves instead of having to depend on a foreign corporate (U.S.) entity for their basic needs, we are dooping ourselves. Are we immune to the same fate? Isn't our security tied up in their freedom? As MLK said, "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." And if it is said that violence and oppression are unavoidably tied up in the history and future of Latin America, one only need to look at the power of democracy growing in Bolivia, Venezuela, Argentina, and the uprising of the indigenous peoples there. It is not they who are keeping themselves poor and needy, it is policy and property that our government actively supports and will unblinkingly defend with deadly force. This is the reality of our newest compatriots, whether legal or not. We are tied up in the same fate whether we like it or not. My great-great grandparents were not born here. Did they immigrate legally? No idea, nor is that important to me right now. What is important to me is whoever is here right now is on our team, working on the goals that we are staking out to ensure our regional sustainability. To paraphrase the inscription on our Statue of Liberty, "Give me your tired, huddled masses yearning to be free..." If we do not expect them to cross our national borders for opportunity and survival, we must loudly oppose oppression that creeps across their borders in our names.
With that being said, I think we are on the same page about our immediate issues being those you mentioned in the form of questions. You may appreciate the addage I recently read, "Take care of yourself, then you can take care of the world." I do not believe that this quote adequately describes what I was trying to say here, but I do think that there is truth to it. If we do not have a sustainable food source that we can depend on, or clean water or shelter, then will we be able to stand up for the less fortunate when times are tough. So Bruce, I am with you here, and I hope that we can get to work and answer these questions you pose with the immediacy that it deserves. I appreciate your insights and your diligent analysis of important numbers. And I completely agree that the only way to a solid solution is through deliberation. Likewise, I intend to not take the deliberation process personally. Sorry for the length here... have a great weekend and I look forward to hearing back!
Wonderful. Are you familiar with grazed beef? I don't know if I mentioned but you may want to check out http://www.polyfacefarms.com/ and the lit he puts out, he has been doing it for a long time, very efficient cycle. The meat is a lot leaner, healthier, and I thought it tasted better when cooked right as well. I would be interested to hear how they turn out. Yes the cattle we use now get plumped and the good ole' cattlemen love them for the marbling they get out of the meat when they manipulate them in such a matter.
I'm sure you are much more familiar with the history of Postville than I am, and yes, this seems like a disgrace to bow to the Rubashkin's in hopes of financial gains. But should we blame the entire town? Is this still the perspective in Postville? I don't think it is, but then again my encounters have been with those who have been exploited by the company. I think getting to one's feet is the first step, and only then can you really expect anyone to focus on the future. I hope that this point, about Postville's leaders allowing a greedy corporation to come in and destroy the social and economic fabric of its town, is not forgotten and that we learn valuable lessons from it.
I understand you have experience working with some people who are trying to gain citizenship through legal measures. This is positive indeed. If I am not mistaken, visa applications cost around $100US. In Mexico, this is 1000 pesos. Now 1000 pesos in Mexico would not be equivalent to $1000US up here, but it definitely is much more difficult to come across 1000 pesos in Mexico than it is $100US up here. And this is just the application, which does not guarantee citizenship or even admittance into our country. Also, a person must show a bank account balance of so much, which many in "3rd world" do not even have a bank account. I may need corrected on some figures here.
But this is not my argument for WHY so many people are trying to cross the borders, but rather why they are not taking the legal route. As you may be bothered by foreign citizens coming to the US illegally to work, how do you think many of them feel about foreign corporations crossing their borders and buying up their land/resources, in turn dictating the wages that they are able to earn? If you haven't seen the film "Voice of a Mountain" I highly recommend it. It is about the 40 year civil war in Guatemala, instigated by the CIA to protect the interests of the ubiquitous United Fruit Company, a US firm. Many of those working at Agriprocessors were Guatamalen, born out of this struggle which our government has great responsibility. And in Mexico and elsewhere, through trade agreements like NAFTA, we have put farmers out of work, more than 2 million, by making their livelihoods finacially impossible in the face of subsidized US ag products. So, for the poor campesinos, it's either move to the city and work in a sweatshop or migrate North where companies like AgriProcessors are waiting with much gusto to rip them and us off.
Now I should apoligize for the tirade. I hope you'll give me your reaction to what I've said here.
The figures were funny:). Everything you said too is dead on and one of the things I am trying to get my family to do as well. The Midwest is great for this as we have the land to do this when communities begin to start to act on a local level...the big city folk are the ones who may be in trouble. I would like to see more of this going on and you may in your lifetime yet as we approach the end of our cheap oil culture. Happy farming!
I have no idea where they get their figures, but they sure are something. I think you are missing my point however, or maybe I was just not clear enough.
Vegetarianism tends to solve a problem ("How are we going to FEED all these people?") but tends to work against solving the problem ("How are we going to stop PRODUCING all these people?") Vegetarianism would enable us to FEED more people; it would also enable us to PRODUCE more people. This is not what we(well I) want. Our population problem can't be solved as long as it's understood as a problem of increasing food production to feed a growing population; it can only be solved when it's understood that increasing food production is what CREATES a growing population.
What I am trying to convey is that if we are going to be doing (whatever we are doing) we must be going about it in a manner where it does not destroy the land base. My point is the way we produce meat today is not sustainable and is destroying the planet. The way we produce grain today is not sustainable and is destroying the planet. The way we produce mono-crop bananas today is not sustainable and is destroying the planet. What we need is an effective way of getting food with as little damage to the environment as possible, if any, otherwise we are going to fail in the long run.
My contradictions of the way we produce food today are based on the fact that 1. the yields are horrible...but this is secondary to 2. the way we are doing it takes more: water, soil, energy, inputs, and so on. It obviously does not fit in to what is natural(which is different due to each unique environment, for instance tons of plants is possible in the tropics, where in the arctic no plants grow but food is gathered sustainably from the ocean and landbase). What we need is a shift to the re-growth of the foods we favor that also favor the environment. If that is salmon then we must care for the rivers and oceans. If it is buffalo then we must allow them to roam the plains. If it is plants then we must gather them from their own natural setting. We need everything to run as nature intended, not as we intend. We need to live in symbiosis, to think we are above nature has turned out to be a very arrogant mistake. Symbioses exist throughout nature since the members of the relationship are often better able to survive and reproduce thus outcompeting other organisms. Again, they are competing with (albeit more effectively together than apart), but not eliminating the other organisms in the community of life who also need resources to survive. Eating animals can be part of the cycle, as much as we are a part of the cycle, but we must evaluate where this fits in due to the given area and if we are going to be relying on doing so how many people can the environment hold(carrying capacity) while continuing to be sustainable.
My beef with modern agriculture and todays 'sustainable ag' is it allows us to be dictators of the land(and turn our cheeks to population and carrying capacity) and what we do with it instead of realizing the land dictates our survival and will do with us what it pleases in the long run if we do not care for it. We do not break the laws of nature, we only end up proving the laws of nature - in our case right now if we do not change we will exhaust our landbase and could face extinction.
Is this by any means going to happen over night? Is this realistic in policy? No and no but I think these are realistic end goals if we wish to remain a species on this planet for much longer.
I think you may enjoy some of this reading:
http://www.urbanscout.org/agriculture-vs-rewilding/#more-188
http://www.mnforsustain.org/food_ag_worst_mistake_diamond_j.htm
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2002/01/020130074549.htm
The second article could use some better figures but the point is made and that is what is important.
Here are some good ones on population growth and food supply:
http://panearth.org/panearth/CarryingCapacity.pdf
http://www.ishmael.org/Education/Science/tightening_conflict.shtml
http://www.panearth.org/panearth/HumanPopulationNumbers.pdf
Also I think you would enjoy much, if I did not mention earlier, the works of Daniel Quinn as he talks much about our current way of living and population.
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If you check this, please know that I am trying to get that book back to you, but that hasn't been going well. However, I am still on it, and will get it to you as soon as I can get there when it is open or when I finally go to the right place.
I am staying home sick today, quite ill. Hope to catch you next time you're in town.
I also agree with you about the (show me the money) mentality, so in knowing that if we want to help today's farmers change the way they farm and that money is the big factor here lets throw money at it until we begin the transformation we desire. Ultimately, I think we need to start with the banking system, because they do drive a lot of the decisions that today's farmers make. I guess what I'm trying to say is if 8.5 out of 10 times a decision is made for financial reasons then lets provide the financing for the good incentives not the unsustainable incentives. After all, this country has been throwing good money after bad for many, many years now. My daddy has a saying, (sometimes, you have to go in the back door to open the front door).
You, my dad & most other farmers were in the same place as far as just going with the flow, so to speak, but that was the knowledge that was presented to them.But my dad like you used the good ol' horse sense god gave them and realized what they were doing wasn't sustainable and changed the ways they farmed (the power of observation). My suggestion is to use the fact that many of today's younger farmers have college degrees to (educate) provide them with viable alternatives as it relates to sustainable farming practices. I really believe we are on the cusp of a farming revolution. Most farmers know they need a different model, but ultimately they do have to make payments, so if provided with viable opportunities they will make the needed changes. Gotta go for now, but thank you for the exchange of ideas.
Sorry to hear about your dad, & I'm looking forward to meeting you when you get moved back up here! Welcome home my friend!
John
As for lobbying, I'd like to go with you to lobby our local officials about GMO seeds as there are very few them who do farm, so they wouldn't know much about GMO's nor could they as local elected officials do anything to influence seed companies to do things differently or enact laws to change farm issues.
Now as far as lobbying our elected state officials, you are the very person that should be lobbying state level officials with your vast knowledge on seeds, farming, judging etc. Because they are the ones who are influenced by the crazy amounts of money seed companies,farm bureau and farm related industries (along with others) give to our elected officials for elections & re-elections, not our city & county officials. And, the way things have gone in the past it is QUITE OBVIOUS to me that the lobbyists are making real headway with our elected officials. There is a reason DC has over 30,000 registered lobbyists working on our elected officials.
Also, I'm very supprised I've never seen you at ANY of the many city council OR supervisor meetings that I've been at. Nor do I remember seeing you at any of the town hall meetings our state & national elected officials hold right here in our local area. Nor did I see you at any of the events I attended when I ran for State Rep this last year.
Now as far as farmers being lazy,, I couldn't DISAGREE with you more. While there are some that are lazy, the vast majority are not. Just the same as there are some bad farmers, the vast majority are good farmers or are at least trying to be good stewards of the land they want to pass on to their children. But they need to be educated with accurate facts and data to help them make responsible & sustainable farming decisions.
To answer your question on what I do; I was born & raised on a dairy farm over by Hawkeye, Ia. After high school I moved to Florida & started a career in sales and became manager of 2 Ladies shoe stores.15 yrs ago we moved back here to Iowa to raise our 4 children. I've worked part time for a farmer down by Ossian all 15 yrs while continuing a career in sales. I've also owned my own candle (handcarved) & craft business, I've managed a welding shop for a brother, I've managed a redemption center, worked in a grocery store, worked for Gage & Gage plumbing & heating, I'm a commercial property owner & a Certified Bi-lingual Auctioneer. I'm a Farm Bureau member & past co-chair of Winneshiek County Community of Hope Growing project. I was assistant manager at Rockweiler Appliance & TV, I sold ATV's, motorcycles etc. at Decorah Kawasaki/Suzuki. I'm a salesman at heart.
Just out of curiosity, how many acres do you have, what do you grow for crops & what do you raise for livestock?
God bless, John Franzen
PS. There is a town hall mtg with a representative of Tom Latham at Decorah city hall tomorrow @ 9:30 am. They are there every 1st Tuesday of the month. Also, John Beard & Maryjo Wilhelm, our new State Rep & State Senator are having a town hall mtg Feb. 28th @ Decorah city hall @ 9:30 am. Hope to see ya there! :-)
Rudolph Steiner, sounds like a smart feller. I had never heard of him before. I will look into the biodynamic ag a little more when I have time. Right now a few friends and I are scoping out some places to plant some food, diversifying our chances. I plan to have a hell of a garden here in the back yard this year, if the landlord is ok with it.
Politicians are moved by many voters showing up for the cause.
I truly believe that farmers, when presented with scientifically based facts want to do what is right.However, we must remember that with the amount of debt farmers carry it is also a financial issue. I guess what I'm saying here is that until we remove the subsidies and let grain prices readjust so that farmers can make a REAL profit as opposed to a subsidized profit we won't see change.
Lastly, A simple math equation, lets say you take 40 people to DesMoines to lobby for a cause our elected officials know that each one of those 40 will directly influence 10 other people, those 10 (not quite as passionate as you) will directly influence 3-4 each, & that 3-4 will directly influence 1-2 more.
Now here's the magic, 4x10= 400x3=1200+1200 == 2400 VOTERS. Every single politician out there knows that wins or losses any election & once elected most of what a politician is thinking about is getting themselves re-elected. There really is power in #'s !! Thanks Bruce, John
On that same day at 6:30 p.m. at Good Shepherd Church, 701 Iowa Ave, there is a Co-op potluck for member/owners. From 7:30-8:00 there will be a rep with Food and Fitness Initiative giving an update. Are you a member/owner of the co-op? If you aren't, you might want to give it some thought.
Also, picking away at the book.... Also, I found out that the videos I watched were done by Jeffrey Smith, called the GMO trilogy I think.
The question, when do we want to get together. Well, I think first we must come up with a topic of discussion, with some clearly defined goals. Should we begin by setting up a group that will discuss some local food solutions, possibly something with which to approach Grown Locally the readers on this site and have others comment. Sorry, I do not have the answers. Perhaps if we set a date with a certain topic at hand and post it for everyone to see, others will join. It sure seemed there was interest when you made the suggestion on the forum. What about Wed, Feb. 11? Or Presidents Day Feb. 16? I am free those days, at least in the evening. I suppose that is the situation of most people. Did you know that Majora Carter is coming to Luther on Feb. 10 at 7pm. I excited for that. Talk to you soon
You ask some great questions, but unfortunately when it comes to local governance structures and plans, I am fairly uneducated. I guess that comes with being 26 and not having "settled" yet. Regardless, I am prepared to engage in the process, just recognizing my learning curve may be a little steep.
As far as our discussion about immigration, it seems we disagree on a fundamental level. We have lots of skeleton in the closet internationally. Nobody can deny that we are responsible (US government) for a good deal of the suffering and poverty that exists in the world today. No, not all of it, but a lot. For instance, if we don't recognize the fact that we facilitated the coup in Guatemala that deposed a democratically elected president, who was actively working on land reform so that the people could work the land to sustain themselves instead of having to depend on a foreign corporate (U.S.) entity for their basic needs, we are dooping ourselves. Are we immune to the same fate? Isn't our security tied up in their freedom? As MLK said, "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." And if it is said that violence and oppression are unavoidably tied up in the history and future of Latin America, one only need to look at the power of democracy growing in Bolivia, Venezuela, Argentina, and the uprising of the indigenous peoples there. It is not they who are keeping themselves poor and needy, it is policy and property that our government actively supports and will unblinkingly defend with deadly force. This is the reality of our newest compatriots, whether legal or not. We are tied up in the same fate whether we like it or not. My great-great grandparents were not born here. Did they immigrate legally? No idea, nor is that important to me right now. What is important to me is whoever is here right now is on our team, working on the goals that we are staking out to ensure our regional sustainability. To paraphrase the inscription on our Statue of Liberty, "Give me your tired, huddled masses yearning to be free..." If we do not expect them to cross our national borders for opportunity and survival, we must loudly oppose oppression that creeps across their borders in our names.
With that being said, I think we are on the same page about our immediate issues being those you mentioned in the form of questions. You may appreciate the addage I recently read, "Take care of yourself, then you can take care of the world." I do not believe that this quote adequately describes what I was trying to say here, but I do think that there is truth to it. If we do not have a sustainable food source that we can depend on, or clean water or shelter, then will we be able to stand up for the less fortunate when times are tough. So Bruce, I am with you here, and I hope that we can get to work and answer these questions you pose with the immediacy that it deserves. I appreciate your insights and your diligent analysis of important numbers. And I completely agree that the only way to a solid solution is through deliberation. Likewise, I intend to not take the deliberation process personally. Sorry for the length here... have a great weekend and I look forward to hearing back!
I understand you have experience working with some people who are trying to gain citizenship through legal measures. This is positive indeed. If I am not mistaken, visa applications cost around $100US. In Mexico, this is 1000 pesos. Now 1000 pesos in Mexico would not be equivalent to $1000US up here, but it definitely is much more difficult to come across 1000 pesos in Mexico than it is $100US up here. And this is just the application, which does not guarantee citizenship or even admittance into our country. Also, a person must show a bank account balance of so much, which many in "3rd world" do not even have a bank account. I may need corrected on some figures here.
But this is not my argument for WHY so many people are trying to cross the borders, but rather why they are not taking the legal route. As you may be bothered by foreign citizens coming to the US illegally to work, how do you think many of them feel about foreign corporations crossing their borders and buying up their land/resources, in turn dictating the wages that they are able to earn? If you haven't seen the film "Voice of a Mountain" I highly recommend it. It is about the 40 year civil war in Guatemala, instigated by the CIA to protect the interests of the ubiquitous United Fruit Company, a US firm. Many of those working at Agriprocessors were Guatamalen, born out of this struggle which our government has great responsibility. And in Mexico and elsewhere, through trade agreements like NAFTA, we have put farmers out of work, more than 2 million, by making their livelihoods finacially impossible in the face of subsidized US ag products. So, for the poor campesinos, it's either move to the city and work in a sweatshop or migrate North where companies like AgriProcessors are waiting with much gusto to rip them and us off.
Now I should apoligize for the tirade. I hope you'll give me your reaction to what I've said here.
Vegetarianism tends to solve a problem ("How are we going to FEED all these people?") but tends to work against solving the problem ("How are we going to stop PRODUCING all these people?") Vegetarianism would enable us to FEED more people; it would also enable us to PRODUCE more people. This is not what we(well I) want. Our population problem can't be solved as long as it's understood as a problem of increasing food production to feed a growing population; it can only be solved when it's understood that increasing food production is what CREATES a growing population.
What I am trying to convey is that if we are going to be doing (whatever we are doing) we must be going about it in a manner where it does not destroy the land base. My point is the way we produce meat today is not sustainable and is destroying the planet. The way we produce grain today is not sustainable and is destroying the planet. The way we produce mono-crop bananas today is not sustainable and is destroying the planet. What we need is an effective way of getting food with as little damage to the environment as possible, if any, otherwise we are going to fail in the long run.
My contradictions of the way we produce food today are based on the fact that 1. the yields are horrible...but this is secondary to 2. the way we are doing it takes more: water, soil, energy, inputs, and so on. It obviously does not fit in to what is natural(which is different due to each unique environment, for instance tons of plants is possible in the tropics, where in the arctic no plants grow but food is gathered sustainably from the ocean and landbase). What we need is a shift to the re-growth of the foods we favor that also favor the environment. If that is salmon then we must care for the rivers and oceans. If it is buffalo then we must allow them to roam the plains. If it is plants then we must gather them from their own natural setting. We need everything to run as nature intended, not as we intend. We need to live in symbiosis, to think we are above nature has turned out to be a very arrogant mistake. Symbioses exist throughout nature since the members of the relationship are often better able to survive and reproduce thus outcompeting other organisms. Again, they are competing with (albeit more effectively together than apart), but not eliminating the other organisms in the community of life who also need resources to survive. Eating animals can be part of the cycle, as much as we are a part of the cycle, but we must evaluate where this fits in due to the given area and if we are going to be relying on doing so how many people can the environment hold(carrying capacity) while continuing to be sustainable.
My beef with modern agriculture and todays 'sustainable ag' is it allows us to be dictators of the land(and turn our cheeks to population and carrying capacity) and what we do with it instead of realizing the land dictates our survival and will do with us what it pleases in the long run if we do not care for it. We do not break the laws of nature, we only end up proving the laws of nature - in our case right now if we do not change we will exhaust our landbase and could face extinction.
Is this by any means going to happen over night? Is this realistic in policy? No and no but I think these are realistic end goals if we wish to remain a species on this planet for much longer.
I think you may enjoy some of this reading:
http://www.urbanscout.org/agriculture-vs-rewilding/#more-188
http://www.mnforsustain.org/food_ag_worst_mistake_diamond_j.htm
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2002/01/020130074549.htm
The second article could use some better figures but the point is made and that is what is important.
Here are some good ones on population growth and food supply:
http://panearth.org/panearth/CarryingCapacity.pdf
http://www.ishmael.org/Education/Science/tightening_conflict.shtml
http://www.panearth.org/panearth/HumanPopulationNumbers.pdf
Also I think you would enjoy much, if I did not mention earlier, the works of Daniel Quinn as he talks much about our current way of living and population.
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